Aardvark

[Bruce Simpson]

This column is archived at: http://aardvark.co.nz/daily/2010/0204.shtml

Could it be that we're approaching the point where automotive technology is just getting *too* complex?

With "drive by wire" becoming increasingly common now, what happens when a software or hardware failure sends our car hurtling out of control?

If you had the choice, would you opt for a far simpler (but still uber-reliable) vehicle rather than the cars we drive now -- which contain far more hi-techery than the original lunar lander?

What was your first car and how does it compare to the car you drive today from both a technology, performance and reliability perspective?

Do you still do your own maintenance and repairs or is your present car just too complex to even dare raising the bonnet?

[Peter]

I hope not to have to buy another car for the next decade or so due to the reliability of the two we have now.

But yes, serviceability has changed. When I bought a V6 I was having some problems with it not idling so took it into a local garage and asked for an oil change (I don't think you have to do the grease bit any more) and to check the spark plugs. When I picked the car up the mechanic said they had only been able to check the front three plugs because he couldn't get at the back three! Not much hope for me with my screwdriver and crescent.

As long as Microsoft keep out of the car OS business we shouldn't have to much to worry about though.

[Hiro Protagonist]

[Who?]

Having to put with many cars of unsophisticated heritage with no electronics, I am in no hurry to return to this state. The fact of the matter is the modern car with all it's wiz-techery is an order of magnitude more reliable, safer and fuel efficient.

I can certainly remember major recalls and life threatening faults on cars long before electronics was introduced into the automotive world. This isn't something new because of the introduction of electronics, it's just plain old human nature at work. I never EVER want to go back to my original Vauxhall Viva. What a POS! It was downright dangerous at any speed.

Bruce, I think you are seeing the past through rose coloured glasses.

[Plato]

Bruce - when you talk simlicity - I think you are talking pure electric....

An EV is pure simplicity and maybe we should be focusing on developing advanced battery technology and conducting even more renewable energy research...

But even the next generation of "eco" cars is getting overly complex. I was reading that one of the Japanese car companies are looking at creating a hydrogen/electric hybrid and selling a hydrogen plant that we'd house in our garages - with enroute hydrogen refilling stations for long trips....

As a society we seem to strive for great efficiency AND greater complexity....

As I get older - I'm all for efficiency but combined with greater simplicity....obvioulsy I am out of step with the world...

[Bruce Simpson]

[Planky]

[Plato]

I agree Bruce - hence my comments about additional research needed into alternate energy generating applications. As an aside, I lived in San Diego for 2 years in the late 90's. All of San Diego's electricity came from two nukes that seemed to be highly environmentally friendly....and certainly efficient...

I think it was you also that referenced a very interesting article not too long ago - about the limited supply of battery materials ...

...and then there is the environmental issues of disposing (or recycling) of all these dead batteries in a few years time...assuming EVs are widely adopted.

But my comments were really focused towards the overall technical simplicity of EVs compared to the complexity, that you initally commented on, in cars running with Internal Combustion Engines (ICE)...

[techy]

[scribble]

Lithium is as recyclable as lead and people don't complain (much) about the amount of LA batteries floating around.

On topic though, yes, I don't like the way cars are going as well, making them even more expensive to fix as everything has to be done at a dealer as only they have the tools required (FSM's, proprietory ECU interface etc). It'll be the death of the local mechanic. Also means that backyarders can't modify their cars anymore either (and I don't mean boyracers ). I tinker with my cars, fixing and improving, but anything newer than about 2002 ish this gets very difficult due to the electronics.

I do think that cars are getting overly complex due to safety and protecting the stupid people from themselves. Driver training should involve things like turning off the engine at speed so the trainee gets to know what it's like with no power steering. I had to do this once when the throttle stuck open on my car (who left that spanner in there! ), I'd forgotten just how heavy the steering is.

EV's will end up with more software and electronics, but since they are controlling a much simpler system (instead of all the emissions gear, timing etc on an ICE) mistakes should be a lot less common.

[Who?]

[chewy_nz]

I work in IT yet outside my working life I prefer a mix of lowtech and medium tech gadgets.

I drive a 1973 Holden HQ and love the lack of technology in the car. My favourite modification was updating the points igintion to electronic. I made this upgrade after the ceramic tab on the points broke and I had to get a tow home on my wifes birthday.

I can carry out most repairs at home. It gets rubbish milage but its only a weekend car so it doesnt really mater.

Cruising in summer with the windows down, on the bench seat up front with three on the tree (column change) and an old V8 is priceless.

[barryl]

[barryl]

[tonyr]

[4765656B]

[DarrenG]

[Ian O]

[Ian O]

[Greg]

I miss being able to get under the bonnet and tweaking the carburettors, timing, points etc.

My first car was a nifty twin carb corolla.

Since then I've had a couple of mazdas, a bmw, an alfa romeo, a few nissans.

On my current car I wouldn't even begin to know where to start to do a tune-up.

[jonp]

Yea may be complex but usually worry free and just needs occasional work.
My Toyota has just recently passed 100 000K so it got a cam belt and a set of spark plugs. Tune up ... that's it. Also had a couple of filters and regular oil changes. If the windscreen washer bottle was bigger I probably wouldn't even need to open the bonnet. So much easier than the cars I could fix and so often needed to!

[zkarj]

I'm less concerned about a handful of "uncommanded accelerations" than I am about the commanded ones by idiot drivers. The bigger problem is the drivers, not the cars.

BTW, in the uncommanded acceleration scenario and the engine won't kill, what happens if you apply all that hydraulic braking power. Wouldn't the engine eventually stall, thus killing the problem?

[Bruce Simpson]

Yes, the brakes will always have more than enough power to stall the vehicle, even at full throttle.

However, imagine you're driving along and taking a bend at a moderate (but safe) speed when all of a sudden the throttle goes to the floor.

Now you *can* stab the brake but then (in a 2WD vehicle anyway) going to end up with one set of wheels braking and the other still pushing. ABS will mitigate this effect to some degree but not completely.

There's a good chance that even with all the latest fancy "electronic stability controls" you're going to unbalance the vehicle enough to create a spin. In fact, the ESC may even be confused by the same fault that produced the unintended acceleration.

The more stuff we add, the more there is to go wrong.

[Ian O]

[Greg]

[Ian O]

[richms]

On the flipside, the net give you so much information about the operation of the cars, and there are cheaply available tools using the OBD connectors to see and change most options on cars, that I think it is easier to work on them now then it would have been in the old days.

I had my first car back when the net was not widely used. Couldnt find anything on it other than a hopeless haynes manual.

Whereas now you can find videos, exploded diagrams, dealer service info etc all over the net. There is no wondering whats gone wrong with a car, you just read out the fault code and that usually leads to a good rundown of what to check before you start randomly replacing certain parts.

Details of what signals should be where are readily available, so with just a multimeter you can check the operation of heaps of it, even without a scope.

[edwin]