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Hello, Richard, Richard, are you there? (28 Jan 2010)

 
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Bruce Simpson
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Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject: Hello, Richard, Richard, are you there? (28 Jan 2010) Reply with quote

This column is archived at: http://aardvark.co.nz/daily/2010/0128.shtml

Hi-fives all round at Vodafone HQ?

What the hell is wrong with Telecom that the've built a network so frail that the smallest hardware or software failure takes out service to three-quarters of the nation?

Have they done XT on the cheap and overlooked key network elements such as redundancy and backup?

What form should compensation take for the huge numbers who lost service yesterday for the second time in as many months?

Is a weekend of free calls really enough?

Were you affected?

Are you considering jumping to Vodafone?

Do you carry two phones on separate networks simply because you have to?
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Hopefulone



Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 151

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I hesitate at jumping to Telecom's (or any other carrier's) defence, it has been a fact of life that any new network has initial stability problems. This sad fact also applies to any new technology including our dearly-loved (!) Windows. When Vodafone's predecessor, Bell South, first turned on their GSM network it was absolutely horrendous, causing all sorts of problems in other communications equipment and running its users's batteries flat in just minutes of use.

Sure you can make anything 'bombproof' but it usually takes a few iterations to get there and it usually involves cost. The people who complain most usually have the shortest arms and the deepest pockets.
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Bruce Simpson
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is that Telecom have pitched this as a "state of the art" network, not one that's "currently undergoing final testing".

Also, why should customers have to pay (by way of losses incurred through the loss of service -- ie: Telecom's failure to deliver the promised service levels) for the company's rush to get this thing to market?

If you bought a car that broke down every couple of months and as a result was off the road for a day or two, would you say "that's okay, it's only natural that a new product will have a few issues"?

Hell no, we expect manufacturers to sort the "issues" *before* they start demanding money from us -- don't we?
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mal



Joined: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 24
Location: Wellington

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how many people are tied into contracts and are stuck with their XT phones. Could these outtages be enough for business users of the XT network to demand early termination of their contracts?

I'm still on a very old CDMA phone - it rings, I can make the odd call and send/receive txts. thats all I need my phone to do.
No rush to upgrade Smile
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Simon



Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 457

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little off topic sorry but has anyone else on Telecom broadband been rung by them trying to get you to sign up for a years contract (with massive early termination fee) in exchange for a free wireless mouse/keyboard or Sennheiser headphones?
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barryl



Joined: 21 Nov 2009
Posts: 254
Location: Canterbury

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
A little off topic sorry but has anyone else on Telecom broadband been rung by them trying to get you to sign up for a years contract (with massive early termination fee) in exchange for a free wireless mouse/keyboard or Sennheiser headphones?


Yes me. I just provided Telemarketer Response "A" ie; I told them I charge $25 per minute to talk with telemarketers, give me your credit card details NOW, -------- "click" It works every time.

However, back on topic. What did we really expect? Remember where their DNA comes from. Yes, the old bloated nasty NZPO. but now with layers of bean-counters, account managers, no-nothing kids, "Help" desks sourced by the lowest bidder (Somalia next?) , huge profits, A previous CEO who giggled and admitted their job was to "confuse the customer" while drawing an obscene salary, now we have layers of smart-alec Poms who again get paid a Kings Ransom, and "Circle the wagons" and decline to front-up when things go wrong. Add in a new logo that looks like a 3 year old's crayon scribble for how many $$$$$$$$$ ????

Yes, I know everything fails. So do they, so it behooves them to plan for it ! Duh. Tell you what, give all upper management a 75% pay cut, get the fees back from that irritating whiner "Richard" as NOWHERE in his adverts did he mention these failures; and spend the savings on building in a little redundancy.

I'm always reminded of the LV Martin advert:-- "It's the putting right that counts" He's so right, and it's a pity the Blue Scribble mob don't get this simple concept.
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tonyr



Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 213

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"instantly converting customers' cellphones into little more than very expensive MP3 players"

Not quite, thanks to an unusual rush of blood, at least the XT network is GSM compatible so a simple SIM switch will revitalise the phones. And if a user is on a term contract there would be a strong case to terminate, something about consumer legislation and fit for purpose....
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keewee01



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 123
Location: Ashburton, New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember the old Bell South days - outages were not uncommon.

It is a major disruption to business users (and a major inconvenience to personal users) for the network to go out like this. And when it did come back up it was dodgy for quite some hours. Telecom are getting a bit better at informing people though... so they're slowly learning.

It is not unreasonable for people (business customers especially) to expect a month free out of Telecom for this. Otherwise Telecom may find a lot of business customers seriously considering moving. Have heard a lot of personal customers talking seriously about 2degrees.
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Sophocles



Joined: 18 Nov 2006
Posts: 880
Location: Auckland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon wrote:

A little off topic sorry but has anyone else on Telecom broadband been rung by them trying to get you to sign up for a years contract (with massive early termination fee) in exchange for a free wireless mouse/keyboard or Sennheiser headphones?

No. They would get an earful from my partner the moment they identified themselves as a Telescum broadband representative! Her broadband was paid for by her employer (her job was home-based). It was paid up to the end of this month. She resigned from her job two weeks ago, effective at the end of this month, and set about researching broadband providers to switch to. Telecom was not an option ... their service has been abysmal. She settled on Ihug (Vodafone), contacted them and made arrangements.

The next day (last Thursday) her broadband went off. And stayed off. Vodafone had been on the ball and sent in their work request .... for 01/02/2010. So Telecom cut off the broadband immediately: 21/01/2010 no matter that it was paid up to 31/01/2010 ...

I arrived home, to be confronted by a ... furious ... lioness stalking the house, looking for antelopes* to kill ... kill ...kill! Furious is an understatement. I've survived but I really don't like the chances for the next Telecom employee to try attracting her attention ...

Outcome: when contacted, Vodafone did the decent thing---without any prompting---and brought their service forward a full week at no extra charge (kudos to Vodafone!) so it's all up and going again. But I don't think either of us will want to even consider Telecom as a telecommunications supplier again --- not after this and not after trying to bill me $104.00 for terminating my land line ($28.74 was all that was actually owing, and the land line was at a another address ...).

I'll be kind and allow you all to draw your own conclusions about "New Zealand's premier telecommunications provider" ...

* Telecom employees .... any Telecom employes ...
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zkarj



Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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Location: Wellington, New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

keewee01 wrote:
Telecom are getting a bit better at informing people though... so they're slowly learning.

Didn't you hear that Theresa had left?

I was affected. I had switched from Vodafone to XT less than 24 hours prior to the outage hitting. In fact, I switched myself and my two kids. One of whom had said "XT just means 'unreliable' to me."

Am I pissed that I lost a lot of service? Well, yes, because I was really enjoying the excellent data speeds and coverage. Am I on a warpath? No.

Hell, I work in IT. In fact, I work for one of Telecom's IT suppliers. I know a lot of the *beep* that goes on behind the scenes. Twice in as many months is bad, but certainly not unheard of. It's the same, to me, as people bleating that GMail goes down for a few hours. Their uptime stats are bloody good by industry standards.

Yes, I think we should hold Telecom accountable and ensure they do as much as they can to learn from mistakes and prevent a recurrence. And maybe a $5 credit will mollify the punter on the street, but I have a question re business use.

What, exactly, do Telecom (or Vodafone for that matter) promise as an SLA to businesses? And does any business vow and declare when signing up that they expect to be able to utterly rely upon said service? Remember that landlines, CDMA mobiles and Vodafone mobiles were all viable during this outage. Along with all means of communication via (non-XT) internet channels.

Is it wise to set up a business that relies solely on a single form of communication? I don't think so.
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Peter



Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 2355
Location: Dunedin

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Simon wrote:
A little off topic sorry but has anyone else on Telecom broadband been rung by them trying to get you to sign up for a years contract (with massive early termination fee) in exchange for a free wireless mouse/keyboard or Sennheiser headphones?


I was posted or emailed this offer. I might have considered it, but I already have Sennheiser headphones and only have one head. And I have just thrown out my wireless mouse and keyboard, they were no more convenient when they operated properly and annoyed me far to often when the battery voltage dropped.
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thrashcardiom



Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 525

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Twice in as many months is bad, but certainly not unheard of


It's more than twice in as many months. Those are just major, major outages. There are others and plenty of them. For instance, from sometime early on Saturday 23rd of January 2010 to late morning on Sunday 24th we had absolutely no voice facilities available on the XT network in my district. We could send text messages but voice calls including to voice mail did not work. The CDMA network was still up and running.

http://www.clad.co.nz/telecom-s-xt-network-down/
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Perry



Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 538
Location: Hastings

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce wrote:
What would you consider a fair and
reasonable level of compensation for
those who lost their mobile service
(again) yesterday?

Same as applies for land line failure
would be a good gesture. Used to be
a free month or a $50 voucher of
some sort.
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zkarj



Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 952
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thrashcardiom wrote:
Quote:
Twice in as many months is bad, but certainly not unheard of


It's more than twice in as many months. Those are just major, major outages. There are others and plenty of them. For instance, from sometime early on Saturday 23rd of January 2010 to late morning on Sunday 24th we had absolutely no voice facilities available on the XT network in my district. We could send text messages but voice calls including to voice mail did not work. The CDMA network was still up and running.

http://www.clad.co.nz/telecom-s-xt-network-down/

I see from that article that the folly of relying on a single service has been realised.

Edit: Try operating your car for the next year using only one brand of petrol. The other day I went into my usual BP and they were completely out of 91 octane. It was a delivery problem so there was none to be had in my area. Shell had some though.
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thrashcardiom



Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 525

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I see from that article that the folly of relying on a single service has been realised.


Yes, hindsight is 20/20 vision.

The fact is that we expect our services to be reliable. In the case of the CDMA network, it is highly reliable. I can't recall the last time I had a CDMA outage (when I was using that network). The landline services is also very reliable. These expectations are passed on to new services.

ADSL is another story altogether.

Also, costs come into play. Providing a number of people with mutiple handsets (mobile workforce, landlines are out) would go down like a lead balloon with workers, money handlers, and with ratepayers.


Last edited by thrashcardiom on Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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roygbiv



Joined: 29 Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Location: Auckland, NZ

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I would wait for the full post mortem from Telecom or the independent investigator promised (and not the MSM version) before casting any judgement and just keep those knives sharpened.

I certainly sympathise with those affected but have previously thought through how to manage without my cellphone. And I can, it is a minor inconvenience and I intend it to remain that way.
But, to be honest, if my livelihood depended on being immediately contactable or being able to immediately contact somebody ie. using a cellphone then I would sure as hell have some contingency in place. Two phones or dual SIM with a prior agreement with Telecom/Vodaphone to divert calls from one to the other.
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barryl



Joined: 21 Nov 2009
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Location: Canterbury

PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But, to be honest, if my livelihood depended on being immediately contactable or being able to immediately contact somebody


Quite true, if I was again in that situation, (and I was for several years) I'd rely on an independent backup, a pager or a radio. But, that's hardly the point. The point being that Telecom spend vast sums of money on baubles like high-priced pommy whiners, PR firms who specialize in dopey but costly crayon scribbles, some vastly overpaid giggly staff, and other trivia, not ONE BIT of which improves the reliability of their hardware or software.

1. They should get back to their basics and buy a little more reliability.

2. If I was a Telecom customer, I'd be looking at the CGA, they take the money and don't deliver their advertising drivel.
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Hopefulone



Joined: 02 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce Simpson wrote:
If you bought a car that broke down every couple of months and as a result was off the road for a day or two, would you say "that's okay, it's only natural that a new product will have a few issues"?

Hell no, we expect manufacturers to sort the "issues" *before* they start demanding money from us -- don't we?


Revolution vs evolution methinks Bruce
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paulw



Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting that people south of the Bombays are bleating on about this. Most likely the same ones laughing on Tuesday after Auckland's power outage.
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mikebartnz



Joined: 19 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote"I'm still with the Vodafone network and, despite being in plain sight of their celltower all day (about 3kms away) I still find I get SMS messages telling me that I've just missed a call, even though my phone never rang"
I have found that a quality phone makes all the difference as I used to get a similar thing with a previous phone.
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Bruce Simpson
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikebartnz wrote:
Quote"I'm still with the Vodafone network and, despite being in plain sight of their celltower all day (about 3kms away) I still find I get SMS messages telling me that I've just missed a call, even though my phone never rang"
I have found that a quality phone makes all the difference as I used to get a similar thing with a previous phone.

Well it happened with my Motorola and it happens now with my Nokia.

I know that Motorola is no longer so highly respected but I figured that Nokia hadn't dropped the ball too much.
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zkarj



Joined: 05 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

barryl wrote:
The point being that Telecom spend vast sums of money on baubles like high-priced pommy whiners, PR firms who specialize in dopey but costly crayon scribbles, some vastly overpaid giggly staff, and other trivia, not ONE BIT of which improves the reliability of their hardware or software.

How do you know they haven't been sold a lemon by Alcatel-Lucent?

I mean, a LOT of people trust Apple to produce great, reliable hardware, but the recently released 27" iMacs have been plagued with dodgy graphics cards. Standard items that have been supplied by ATI or NVidia.

Spending more money does not mean getting better reliability always. Besides which, they have already spent a snotload of money as it is. And I can tell you for a fact they are taking it VERY seriously internally based on some emails I saw today.
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Bruce Simpson
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zkarj wrote:
And I can tell you for a fact they are taking it VERY seriously internally based on some emails I saw today.

Well I did sign up for the "test drive" but they opted not to have me do my "Richard Hammond" impersonation to *really* test the XT network out Smile

Boy, I bet the champagne is flowing over at Vodafone tonight eh?
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mikebartnz



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bruce Simpson wrote:
Well it happened with my Motorola and it happens now with my Nokia.

I know that Motorola is no longer so highly respected but I figured that Nokia hadn't dropped the ball too much.

There are Nokia's and Nokia's. My present phone is a Nokia as was my last three. One I had was a complete load of crap whereas my present one has been brilliant. I got a good deal on it but it was worth about $500 a couple of years ago
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kanedavid



Joined: 13 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:30 pm    Post subject: Integrity Reply with quote

You have to remember that this issue isn't to do with the fact that Telecom had a piece of critical hardware that has failed - We all know (and have to accept) that sometimes *beep* happens.

BUT, the real issue is one of a PR matter.

In business, PR is a big issue. Because it often isn't so much about what you deliver, its how you deliver and the expectation level that you are setting in your customers mind pertaining to that delivery.

When Telecom XT was launched with much fanfare, we were spoon-fed truck loads of guff about how great their new network is etc. This instantly gives the average customer an impression that when they sign up, they are getting to use a completely infallible mobile network - wrong.

OK, I'm not suggesting that Telecom lame themselves out in a TV ad either - but clearly a common theme missing from most telecommunication sales blurbs is the detail about reliability expectation levels.

When any customer signs up with Telecom (or Vodafone), the mobile operator should clearly point out the promised 'level-of-service' and what the arrangement is if the mobile operator fails in that service level.

There are two benefits in this:

For the mobile operator, they can easily say "Sorry, when you signed up, you were told that the network was only 99% reliable and that single outages up to 2 days in length may occur" - This is a get out clause for Telecom which CLEARLY places the risk element onto the customer. It also means that for outages up to 2 days, they don't have to pay a single bean.

For the customer, they know and understand the limits, and it would be 'their' choice whether to risk running their business on a service that might have outages. If they don't wish to take that risk, they can then either look for alternate providers (whose service guarantee might be better), or look to ways that they as a business can mitigate the effects of an outage before one actually happens.

The trouble with Telecom (which I have proved to them before) is that they have little regard for their customers TIME.
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