Aardvark

[Bruce Simpson]

It's a scam through and through, yet the number of websites promising that they offer the secrets to doubling your car's fuel economy by simple electrolysis systems is growing rapidly.

These scammers are ripping people off by claiming to have broken the first law of thermodynamics.

Where are the conservation of energy police when you need them?

What do you think of this?

Does your car run on water?

[paulw]

[alba]

I've tried various combinations of this kind of water for fuel but found nothing so impressive.. The FC is still as bad as before..
So I keep looking for other opinions to see the matter..

[jonny848]

maybe i don't know enough about cars, but isn't the alternator running from the moment you turn your car on? if the addition of h2 and o2 do make for a more explosive blend of gasoline, and the only issue is that it takes more energy to create hho than is gained, are you not now utilizing overflow or the lost energy from the alternator to create hho? can this energy that would be lost anyway (by the alternator running and having a full battery) not be considered free?

[Bruce Simpson]

Your alternator doesn't "create" energy, it converts rotational energy from the engine into electrical energy.

There is no "waste" energy coming from your alternator.

When the battery is charged, the alternator stops generating electricity because the exciter winding on the rotating armature is not energized.

There are no free lunches, every watt of electrical energy that the alternator puts out requires more than a watt of energy to be generated by the motor through the burning of fuel.

Try this experiment...

Get a small DC electric motor (of the kind used in toys or whatever). These have permanent magnets and are fairly easy to turn when the wires from them are unconnected to anything.

Now twist the two wires from the motor together.

Notice that the motor is now *much* harder to turn than it was when the wires were apart?

That's because, with the wires unconnected, no current is flowing so no power is actually being generated.

When the wires are joined, current flows through those wires because the motor acts as a generator. Because it's now supplying power, the motor requires more power to turn it. The *extra* effort you have to use to turn the motor is what makes the current flow through those wires.

And that's how it is with your car's alternator.

In fact, sometimes (depending on the vehicle, the condition of your battery and the state of tune), you can hear the engine's RPMs drop slightly when you turn on the headlights while it's idling -- that's because the alternator is required to deliver more power so it puts extra load on the car's engine.

The same goes if you use one of those portable gasoline generators. You can hear the engine running freely until you start drawing electricity from it, then the engine has to work really hard to deliver that power.

Remember -- no free lunches when it comes to energy -- that's what the First Law of Thermodynamics effectively states and that's why these "run your car on water" devices will never work.

[Purple_worm]

You make some good arguements, and I have seen a video where a guy hooked this Hydrogen Generator up to the intake air such that his mileage actually decreased.

But, using your agrument that the more power you need from your alternator, the more resistance it has to turning by the engine and hearing the engine slow down when you trun the lights on, I don't feel will happen when the engine runs a say at 1000--rpm, or even 2200 rpm (about 65 mph). I think the extra 5 amps needed from the alternator for electrolysis will be insignificant. If what you say is true then our gas mileage should decrease when one drives at night. I have been monitoring my gas mileage for years, and have seen some funny things (like I always get better gas mileage when traveling from Mass.to VT. then from VT. to Mass. ), but I"ve never noticed a difference between traveling at night, and travelling during the day.

Your Comments.

Regards
Mark

[starman]

[Bruce Simpson]

[Bruce Simpson]

I've added a page to the feature which describes the scientific proof that these schemes are a scam and includes an interesting (and very revealing) video I found on YouTube that shows just how much of a scam they really are.

it's at: http://aardvark.co.nz/hho_scam.shtml

[decibel]

When I was at school, we had the old "H" shaped electrolysis units where the electrodes were a long way apart. This was to keep the hydrogen and oxygen safely seperate, but the process was horribly inefficient.

I wonder what it would be like if the electrodes were interleaved and the gases came off together?

Still not enough to run your car and definitely not safe, but if some sucker wants to volunteer to try it, I would like to know.

[Bruce Simpson]

[MartinMallorca]

Has anybody of you ever tried to put HHO into a ICE? Not? So what do you really know about it? If you think that websites like water4gas and others are a scam, well, that may be true. But please, before telling it's impossible to improve fuel milage by HHO as a fact, have a look at

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/watercar/

This a forum with more than 8000 really active members, free plans to build a unit on the cheep (have a look at the Smack!), a lot of support, and based on the idea of Open Source Engineering.

By the way, i have built a device based on ideas and results of this forum, and my car (a 1999 Peugeot 406 Turbo Diesel) takes about 3 liters of Diesel for 100 km since putting the cell into it. Before that milage was about 5,6 l /100 km (Sorry, don't know how much it is in MPG)

So please don't mind to inform yourself, there had been thousands of people telling others that men will never be able to fly, that a walk on the moon will be impossible, and that gasoline is the only solution to move a car! Read and learn by yourself, and btw: There is no break of the first or second law of themodynamics in the unit i have built, it's just improoving fuel eficiencys.

Martin

(Sorry for my strange english, i am german and we do have our own vocabulary for some meanings)

[Greg]

[Bruce Simpson]

[silver_spirit_iv]

A car cannot run on water? who says? it is a bit of a cliché

I do agree that these jam jar found on eBay are a complete waste of time and personally I would never place any money into it, however cars running on water has been proven several times. How can you explain what these guys have done?

Stanley Meyer
Daniel Dingle
Herman P. Anderson

If you do not know who they are, then do a simple search on google and video/pictures will be available to you in seconds.

Then finally, why don't you look at the video on this website http://www.haw-system.jp/English/indexE.html

Has the person that has made these pages on HHO Scam ever actually tried to build a cell? Have you actually invested money to build one? Sorry it takes a bit more than a couple of $100 at your local hardware store as stainless steel 316L is not cheap and your local hardware store will never have that. Personally I have had some very good results with my experiments, but I find that having a WFC in a car is not the safest thing to have, so now I rather turn to the s1r9a9m9 solution. Here again, if you are not familiar with this username, do a simple search.

[Bruce Simpson]

[silver_spirit_iv]

You quote, you quote but have conveniently evaded Daniel Dingle and Herman P. Anderson.... Scammers too?

Regarding Meyer, you perfectly know that everything has been made in order to stop this guy from doing what he was doing, to the final point where he has been murdered.

and what about that? http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=c-ulOvJl46U This must be also video edited I guess to make people "beleiving" in the BIG scam

You are 1 against all. Are you part of an oil company? you must be...

[Bruce Simpson]

[silver_spirit_iv]

With some people, discussion is just plain impossible. You obviously have never seen someone with a brain haemorrhage. My grand father died of it and death is NOT sudden.

I gave you plenty of evidence in video and photo that a car can run on water, but still. Now, what about this for a scam, you want people to send you a working prototype, how it works, etc, etc... for free of course and on top of that they should give you 5% of the profits. You are a laughing stock my friend! Honestly who do you think you are? what would grant you such a favor? The biggest scam here is you

Anyway remain in your scam business. I guess BMW are scammers too with their Hydrogen 7 series, so is Daimler-Mercedes with their A Class F-Cell. But maybe Hydrogen is not issued from water, maybe it is petrol, so this has nothing to do with it.

Woaw! You really have convinced ALL of us, everyone is into that scam business! Seems that ridicule does not affect you in any way

[Greg]

Wow. Silver_spirit - do you believe in fairies and father christmas too? I mean really, the proof that father christmas exists is that presents are given to people every year in December, right? Or perhaps water fueled cars only exist in France?

[silver_spirit_iv]

What is this Greg? Some car powered with some cow dung?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HivxQN_G8tA

[Bruce Simpson]

[Bruce Simpson]

[silver_spirit_iv]

Your title, unless I am wrong says: The great "run your car on water" scam

You seem to be confused between a car that can actually run solely on water and cars that are "boosted" with hydrogen. If you look to what I wrote above you will notice that we agree on the jam jar size crap on sale.

Now regarding that car running on water, because you seem to be so clever, please tell me where do you fill the hydrogen on that car if the car does not generate itself? On the BMW Hydrogen 7 anyone an clearly see on the right hand side of the car the place to fill the hydrogen.
Anyone can clearly see the filling up of water, so where do you fill the hydrogen? Maybe you should also ask them 5% of teh sales because clearly you deserve it.

Anyway, this is my last post because frankly this can go on forever and I have better things to do.

[greven]

I've heard that MIDAS in Invercargill are selling fuel saver devices, another similar scam. One of my friends was telling me about it & apparently his boss has had one installed in his car.

Either my friend got something very wrong when telling me about it, or it is a very obvious scam - he said it is a catalyst that creates a chemical reaction to boost the octane level, but it is a device that is fitted to your car, not something added to the fuel

[Greg]

Greven, see if you can get the name of the device. Then you'll probably find it listed on Quack Watch.

[ajck]

Bruce Simpson and Greg (amongst others) - there seem to be some fundamental misunderstandings here about water4gas and any similar HHO systems (they are all basically the same).

There is no claim being made by the people supplying these systems that the hydrogen (or oxygen) is adding any energy to the engine whatsoever. It's got nothing to do with it. If anyone is making these claims, they're wrong.

The way these systems work is simply to make the existing petrol that goes into the engine chamber burn (much) more efficiently - as we all (I hope) know the internal combustion engine found on most vehicles is VERY inefficient, lots of the fuel is unburnt, and some of the energy is lost as heat (and a bit through dirty engines). The ONLY energy the engine and car are getting with water4gas etc. installed is still only from your ordinary petrol tank - no one is claiming anything different.

The stream of HHO that these simple, cheap and easy to build systems inject into the engine through the air intake simply makes the fuel burn more efficiently. End of story. This technology is unpatented, has been around for about a hundred years or more, and is free to use, and disseminate. Water4gas have just collected the details on how to build them into a single ebook. If you buy it and want your money back (for any reason), the payment processor gives you a refund no questions asked. There is no scam, at any level.

What they are supplying has been proven to work by many different people in many different parts of the world.

The big question is guys, will you admit you're wrong about this? Or are you just determined to label water4gas a scam no matter what?

Incidentally, others have thought it was a scam, tried it for themselves, and are now selling it, and benefiting others.

[Bruce Simpson]

[rammer]

OK Bruce, just throwing an idea out there. How about if the electricity is generated from an automotive thermoelectric generator (ATEG)?

The engine to run the vehicle would still be gasoline however the HHO would supplement the fuel, thus using less gas and no alternator to create the HHO.

There have been numerous advances in ATEG technology for example from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_Thermoelectric_Generators

Clarkson university in collaboration with Hi-Z has designed an ATEG for a GM Sierra pick-up truck. The program was funded by the American DOE and NYSERDA. The published literature of this ATEG explained its ability to produce 255 W at a vehicle speed of 112 mph.

It also looks like other Automotive Manufacturers are doing research in this field as well Nissan, Honda and BMW.

I understand that this is a very high speed (112 MPH), but is it doable? Would adding the HHO to the air/fuel mixture cause the engine to burn cooler, thus less electrical output from the ATEG? What are your thoughts?

[HeebieJeebies]

The Problem: this is not your run-of-the-mill science

The Solution:

Cavity QED explaining the combustion of these 'magnecules'
as
' lighting in your engine '

Super Relativity explaining this 'magnegas-isation' as ' energy drainage '

If you cannot understand the science behind it, you are most likely to see this as a scam. Upon a closer look these efficiency levels and this chemistry are sufficiently explained. Any look at E-bay's "Joe Cell" buyers actually reveals 'satisfied' customers

Let's all hope for mass production...

sources:

*A meta-theoretical analysis on combining particle physics with real world phenomena

*The theory of Super Relativity

*Suppression Suppressed