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Bruce Simpson
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 6060
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 Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: Victims, villains and heros (29 May 2007) |
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This column is archived at: http://aardvark.co.nz/daily/2007/0529.shtml
What should happen in respect to those 25,000 Apple computers in our schools that are now effectively devoid of any MS software?
Who (if anyone) should step in and sort this out?
Microsoft? The government? Apple? keen OSS enthusiasts?
Who will be hurt most when this software is pulled?
Is Apple's future in our schools even less certain now in the wake of this? |
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braedon
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 120
Location: Mt Eden, Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Imo the schools would be better off with custom pc's running edubuntu or a custom linux distro. Not only would this be cheaper (if the government can securea a reasonably good hardware deal), it would probably be more stable and easier to set up in the schools than the current mac computers/networks used.
I have very recently been through the highschool system, and anyone who maintains that macs don't crash(and etc), should realy spend about 5 minutes in your average computer suite in a school. The macs crash programs continualy, corupt their installs, freeze entirely, etc. The data servers at my school, with all the years work, where wiped entirely by some glitch an average of 3 times a year.
While the moc lovers will inevitably claim that this is because the mac's where old models, and could not cope(or just deny the problems blatently in a 'funny' mac/pc ad), which is partialy, this does not negate the problem. Most schools do not have the latest and *cough* 'greatest' *cough* macs, and do have these problems.
Using PCs rather than macs would allow tech teams at schools to upgrade the schools computers easier and cheaper, and while using a linux distro would still not provide kids with experience on a computer system they would actualy use in realy life(although a lot of big companies are moving to linux now), it would be infinitly cheaper to use a free linux rather than pay for the linux rip OSX, and for all the other software required, like the software in question, MS office.
---Braedon |
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edwin
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 1230
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: |
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I find that children identify better with the Mac. You can see it on their faces. iTunes, GarageBand, iChat, etc. And because the OS X is "The Most Advanced Desktop Operating System (tm)" it's easy for kids to use because it is inherently more intuitive.
I'm a Mac user. I'm also a Windows user. I used to be a BSD user. I believe in horses for courses, and when it comes to computer in schools to both educate and inspire children, I find that Macs have that charm that Windows-based computers simply don't. You only have to see the children's faces to see what truly engages them.
If learning is better on a Mac, supply them with Macs.
However, the real issue here is:
- were schools running illegal copies of MS Office? (if so, force them to purchase legal copies and/or prosecute)
- is MS trying to bully the Government / MinEdu into removing competitors' products? (if so, unethical on MS's part, Gov should see through this) |
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thrashcardiom
Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 525
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: |
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I agree Braedon. Rather than spending money on proprietry hardware which locks you into one supplier they would be better off going with clone hardware.
And rather than teaching specific software they should be teaching software concepts. This way it shouldn't matter if they are learning on MS Office, OpenOffice, Lotus Smartsuite, KOffice or whatever. The important thing is to learn the concept behind document creation/data manipulation.
That said, I am part owner of a business that occasionally provides school students work experience. We use Linux + OpenOffice + Thunderbird + Firefox as our OS and applications. The students seem to be quite happy coming from the local college which is MS based. They cope well whereas our older temp workers have difficulty with the platform because it is not what they expect. |
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smeenz
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 926
Location: Auckland CBD
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:53 am Post subject: |
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(set spelling_mode=nazi)
| braedon wrote: |
I have very recently been through the highschool system,
While the moc lovers will inevitably claim that this is because the mac's where old models... |
I see high school still doesn't teach people how to spell...
(set spelling_mode=relaxed)
But back on topic... I'm a bit undecided about this whole thing. On one hand it seems to me that Microsoft should just do the right thing and give the schools free licenses, as it would benefit them immensely in the long run, with all those kids knowing nothing but MS Office.
On the other hand, how are we ever going to expose those same kids to the fact that there are alternatives if they never get to use them ?
I'm not really sure which way to sway on this one. |
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Peter
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 2355
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| edwin wrote: | | it's easy for kids to use because it is inherently more intuitive. |
Um, is it. In my experience in IT education it is the applications rather than the OS that are used most of the time, therefore it depends on the "intuitiveness" of each application. Is MS Office more intuitive on a Mac than a WinPC?
| Quote: | If learning is better on a Mac, supply them with Macs.
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Once again, is it? In some ways I am sure it can be, In other ways I am sure it's not.
If the OS is being learned it depends what you want to learn. If you want to learn what you will be using in a future workplace like it or not unless it is in certain small segments Mac is not the way to go. If it is specific applications or learning tools it depends on what OS they are available for. |
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Greg
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Napier, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| edwin wrote: | I find that children identify better with the Mac. You can see it on their faces. iTunes, GarageBand, iChat, etc. And because the OS X is "The Most Advanced Desktop Operating System (tm)" it's easy for kids to use because it is inherently more intuitive.
I'm a Mac user. I'm also a Windows user. I used to be a BSD user. I believe in horses for courses, and when it comes to computer in schools to both educate and inspire children, I find that Macs have that charm that Windows-based computers simply don't. You only have to see the children's faces to see what truly engages them.
If learning is better on a Mac, supply them with Macs. |
Those are some pretty wild statements, and probably self-inspired, to heck with what the children think.
You're kinda suggesting that kids learn better on an all bell-and-whistles visual concept of the Macs? MS and Linux PCs do a lot better on PC based machines. They're also far more glamourous than the 60/70's image that Macs proffer.
Your so-called charm of the Macs is your own perception... naturally kids at school are going to go ooh and ahh if they see a Mac at school that's fifteen years ahead of what old PC's they may have access to at home.
I see the entirely opposite when I visit a public library that's introduced new PCs - the kids simply flock them cos they're so much flasher than what they're used to either at home or at school.
It'll be a damn shame for the kids of tommorrow if they're bludgeoned into the mac fanboy attitude that Macs have all there is to offer in modern world computing.
Learning on a Mac simply isn't better; simply put.
Shame on you for suggesting so! |
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starman
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 507
Location: Sunny North Cornwall, UK :-)
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Pull your head in Greg and any others who suggested the same.
Did you not see the 'If' at the beginning of edwin's comment? |
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braedon
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 120
Location: Mt Eden, Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| smeenz wrote: | (set spelling_mode=nazi)
| braedon wrote: |
I have very recently been through the highschool system,
While the moc lovers will inevitably claim that this is because the mac's where old models... |
I see high school still doesn't teach people how to spell...
(set spelling_mode=relaxed)
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You are correct. High school does not teach spelling. It is assumed that primary and to a small extent intermediate teachers have taught you to spell. The flaw with that assumption, which i quickly found out, is that not all primary and intermediate teachers care about spelling. Mine certainly didn't, hencey my lack of spelling ability. Schools also do not teach tying, which is the other cause of my bad "spelling". Typos.
These two problem have been the bane of my internet existance, for lack of a less geeky phrase. Whenever i post anything, people inevitably attack my spelling, rather than my argument.
This incidently brings up another 2 problems with macs in schools that i found.
1. The spell check almost never worked with office. It may have just been due to incompetence on the part of the main IT guy at my school(he was a mac fanboy btw  ), i don't know, but always about a week or less ofter he had reinstalled everthing on the macs(usualy after the servers wiped themselves, and he had to set up the whole system from scratch), the spell checker stoped working in word. I can only guess as to what the problem was, but the dictionarys where probably getting deleted or moved or somthing. Who knows how. The point is that we almost never had a working spellcheck. This is a problem for my generation. We survive on spellcheckers, for better or worse.
2. The keyboards where frankly imposible to use. Almost all the keyboards in the school IT suites where "old" ones from the colored iMac days. the keys stuck(The ones that didn't didn't did not work at all), the board was way to small and cramped, and there usualy wasn't even enough of these keyboards to go around. Now i don't know how much a new mac keyboard costs, but apparently the school could not afford to replace them, let alone replace more than half of the actual computers with eMacs instead of the old colored iMacs that the keyboards origonaly went with. This is not a small highschool i am talking about. This a 1600+ students, and a quite "flash" public highschool.
---Braedon |
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starman
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 507
Location: Sunny North Cornwall, UK :-)
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| braedon wrote: | | ... people inevitably attack my spelling, rather than my argument ... |
You are not alone in this but if your spelling and grammar are poor then it is more difficult to make your argument clear. People will notice the errors and may presume the argument is flawed as well. |
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braedon
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 120
Location: Mt Eden, Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| starman wrote: | | braedon wrote: | | ... people inevitably attack my spelling, rather than my argument ... |
You are not alone in this but if your spelling and grammar are poor then it is more difficult to make your argument clear. People will notice the errors and may presume the argument is flawed as well. |
As they do, but my point is that they shouldn't. Just as spelling ability is not indication of inteligence(to take the extreem manifestation of attacking people for spelling), the spelling in an argument should have no bearing on a person's analysis of the argument. To attack spelling in you counter argument, even if you do not attack the arguer outright for it, is still effectivly comitting a ad-hominem fallacy. As long as the argument is still "readable"(which mine are almost without fail, and if not, then i notice and correct obvious mistakes), then there is no excuse for bringing up spelling.
---Braedon |
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Greg
Site Admin
Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 1091
Location: Napier, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| starman wrote: | Pull your head in Greg and any others who suggested the same.
Did you not see the 'If' at the beginning of edwin's comment? |
If I had to pull my head in it might be dangerously close to where your's is?
Stick to your stars, mate.
Last edited by Greg on Tue May 29, 2007 2:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Peter
Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 2355
Location: Dunedin
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| edwin wrote: | | And because the OS X is "The Most Advanced Desktop Operating System (tm)" it's easy for kids to use because it is inherently more intuitive. |
There are no if's in this statement. This sort of thing is often stated as if a fact. It sounds like over generalised marketing hype.
More often than not the application interface and intuitiveness (or suitability to what you want to achieve) is far more important than the OS.
I often get into a "discussion" over an "old DOS" application I support. It is actually fully 32-bit using a character interface. One of the prime reasons it hasn't been GUI-ed is because of user demand, Windows isn't designed well for easy data entry.
And "intuitive" isn't always the best approach. When doing phone support I often take users to the Command prompt. It is easier and more accurate to dictate specific commands and relay results than telling someone what to do with their mouse, hoping they click in the right place. And usually faster. |
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k1500
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 947
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| braedon wrote: |
As they do, but my point is that they shouldn't. Just as spelling ability is not indication of inteligence(to take the extreem manifestation of attacking people for spelling), the spelling in an argument should have no bearing on a person's analysis of the argument. To attack spelling in you counter argument, even if you do not attack the arguer outright for it, is still effectivly comitting a ad-hominem fallacy. As long as the argument is still "readable"(which mine are almost without fail, and if not, then i notice and correct obvious mistakes), then there is no excuse for bringing up spelling. |
Try arguing that in any place of employment and watch your contract hit the floor in less time than it takes you to start explaining it. |
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braedon
Joined: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 120
Location: Mt Eden, Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| k1500 wrote: | | braedon wrote: |
As they do, but my point is that they shouldn't. Just as spelling ability is not indication of inteligence(to take the extreem manifestation of attacking people for spelling), the spelling in an argument should have no bearing on a person's analysis of the argument. To attack spelling in you counter argument, even if you do not attack the arguer outright for it, is still effectivly comitting a ad-hominem fallacy. As long as the argument is still "readable"(which mine are almost without fail, and if not, then i notice and correct obvious mistakes), then there is no excuse for bringing up spelling. |
Try arguing that in any place of employment and watch your contract hit the floor in less time than it takes you to start explaining it. |
You are misrepresenting the argument. We are not talking about jobs. We are talking about "casual" arguments on internet forums.
---Shamem |
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Muggles
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Victims, villains and heros (29 May 2007) |
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| Bruce Simpson wrote: | This column is archived at: http://aardvark.co.nz/daily/2007/0529.shtml
What should happen in respect to those 25,000 Apple computers in our schools that are now effectively devoid of any MS software?
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They make a choice to pay for an educational license or install OpenOffice or similar. I know I would go for OpenOffice and spend the money used for MS Office on support. Imagine the govt putting a million or two currently spent on MS Office into pushing OpenOffice onto every computer in the educational system (with support & training). I imagine you would see MS very quickly rethink their position.
| Bruce Simpson wrote: |
Who (if anyone) should step in and sort this out?
Microsoft? The government? Apple? keen OSS enthusiasts?
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I think MS & the government have created the mess, but I think it is up the schools to decide what they want & pay for it via Apple, MS or OSS.
| Bruce Simpson wrote: |
Who will be hurt most when this software is pulled?
Is Apple's future in our schools even less certain now in the wake of this? |
I'm sure Apple will be weakened by this - probably MS's aim to kill off the alternative office suits running on those Mac's, but MS are risking taking a hit with people switching to OSS - not only at school but at home as well. I bet the MS people are worried by the publicity on this, as national wide discussion about alternatives to paying MS cannot be good for any business.
For those who have not been into a school recently, my daughters primary school uses Mac's & don't seem to use Office apps much if at all - primary school kids do a lot of educational websites & the (generally excellent) iLife series of Apple apps. On the other hand, a 7 yr old does not tend to do a lot of number crunching or macros in Excel or Access SQL queries so OpenOffice would be a fine alternative - or even the Google online apps.
Oh, and WTF is with the Maori bashing? The topic of conversation has nothing to do with Maori, yet Bruce slips in an another slimy racist dig which yet ago shows his prejudices well and clear:
| Bruce Simpson wrote: |
Unless you're talking about Kapa Haka or lessons in fulfilling our treaty obligations, you'll find that our schools are pretty poorly funded and rely heavily on the good will of staff, parents and the broader community for many of their critical resources
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k1500
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 947
Location: Wellington
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| braedon wrote: | | k1500 wrote: | | braedon wrote: |
As they do, but my point is that they shouldn't. Just as spelling ability is not indication of inteligence(to take the extreem manifestation of attacking people for spelling), the spelling in an argument should have no bearing on a person's analysis of the argument. To attack spelling in you counter argument, even if you do not attack the arguer outright for it, is still effectivly comitting a ad-hominem fallacy. As long as the argument is still "readable"(which mine are almost without fail, and if not, then i notice and correct obvious mistakes), then there is no excuse for bringing up spelling. |
Try arguing that in any place of employment and watch your contract hit the floor in less time than it takes you to start explaining it. |
You are misrepresenting the argument. We are not talking about jobs. We are talking about "casual" arguments on internet forums.
---Shamem |
Actually I'm not misrepresenting the argument because I don't see a difference in the situations - either way why would you not go to the greatest lengths to present your thoughts in the most logical and accessible format possible? |
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Ian O
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 1015
Location: Christchurch
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:03 pm Post subject: Skool computers |
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| braedon wrote: | I have very recently been through the highschool system, and anyone who maintains that macs don't crash(and etc), should realy spend about 5 minutes in your average computer suite in a school. The macs crash programs continualy, corupt their installs, freeze entirely, etc. The data servers at my school, with all the years work, where wiped entirely by some glitch an average of 3 times a year.
While the moc lovers will inevitably claim that this is because the mac's where old models, and could not cope(or just deny the problems blatently in a 'funny' mac/pc ad), which is partialy, this does not negate the problem. Most schools do not have the latest and *cough* 'greatest' *cough* macs, and do have these problems. |
Got any figures, Braedon? Especially in comparison with Windows equipped schools? My experience with OSX in primary schools over the last few years suggests it's pretty bullet-proof, and school computers need to be mil-spec to survive.
Of course, any computer or server can have hard drive crashes and one problem I've found is that schools are reluctant/unable to afford to spend the $$$ on backup facilities justified by the value of the data held.
| Quote: | Using PCs rather than macs would allow tech teams at schools to upgrade the schools computers easier and cheaper, and while using a linux distro would still not provide kids with experience on a computer system they would actualy use in realy life(although a lot of big companies are moving to linux now), it would be infinitly cheaper to use a free linux rather than pay for the linux rip OSX, and for all the other software required, like the software in question, MS office.
---Braedon |
Debatable what system(s) will be in use when the current crop of primary kids reach the workforce.
Personally I've tried migrating from Mac to Ubuntu, just for the exercise and found it to be as user-friendly as a cornered rat. It might be in comparison to Windows, but not to OSX.
Re the Micro$oft/Schools situation, there is no reason why primary schools need any exposure to MS. The tools provided with or available to Macs are more than capable and in many cases superior. Secondary schools are closer to the so-called real world, but OpenOffice/NeoOffice are easily up to the tasks. Even good ol' AppleWorks still hangs on in there, even if it's getting a bit long in the tooth and hasn't been entirely superceded by Pages etc.
The question so often unasked is "What do you want/need to do with these computers?" |
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zkarj
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 952
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| braedon wrote: | | Imo the schools would be better off with custom pc's running edubuntu or a custom linux distro. Not only would this be cheaper (if the government can securea a reasonably good hardware deal), it would probably be more stable and easier to set up in the schools than the current mac computers/networks used. |
I question whether Linux will be "easier to set up" than either a Mac or PC with pre-installed software? My personal experience of a number of Linux distros tells me that Linux wins if it works out of the box. As soon as you need to change something, you get into a huge exercise of finding just the right tool (and virtually every distro has its unique selection) or, worse, a command line text editor and some file buried in /etc/some/backwater/hole/of/this/system.
More stable? Yeah, probably.
| braedon wrote: | | I have very recently been through the highschool system, and anyone who maintains that macs don't crash(and etc), should realy spend about 5 minutes in your average computer suite in a school. The macs crash programs continualy, corupt their installs, freeze entirely, etc. The data servers at my school, with all the years work, where wiped entirely by some glitch an average of 3 times a year. |
Given the two Macs in my household haven't done this sort of thing, I have to wonder whether the problem is a horde of "inquisitive" children. I would wager they would be able to trash Linux just as efficiently. Not to mention teachers doing their best with low or no budget.
| braedon wrote: | | While the moc lovers will inevitably claim that this is because the mac's where old models, and could not cope(or just deny the problems blatently in a 'funny' mac/pc ad), which is partialy, this does not negate the problem. Most schools do not have the latest and *cough* 'greatest' *cough* macs, and do have these problems. |
See above. Age is not the biggest problem. Most computers run superbly if you remove the users!
| braedon wrote: | | Using PCs rather than macs would allow tech teams at schools to upgrade the schools computers easier and cheaper, and while using a linux distro would still not provide kids with experience on a computer system they would actualy use in realy life(although a lot of big companies are moving to linux now), it would be infinitly cheaper to use a free linux rather than pay for the linux rip OSX, and for all the other software required, like the software in question, MS office. |
Herein lies the flaw in pretty much all the arguments I have seen in this thread.
I have two 12-year-olds in Intermediate School now and it pisses me off on a regular basis that they are taught things like "you insert a picture into a 'PowerPoint' by clicking these menu options." I don't know about how things work at college level these days (but I guess I am about to find out) but if it carries on like this, we're going to have a workforce full of people who know how to use certain products and nothing else.
I was fortunate to grow up in a time where computers were hobbyist "toys" and when things like graphics (i.e. more than plain text) were introduced and one could get a buzz from writing a program to draw something even as simple as a circle. What this has given me is a deep understanding of how and why things work like they work. This means (and I only wish I could convince prospective employers of this) that I can pick up just about any piece of software and become useful with it in a short period of time.
One of my sons feverishly repeats his double-clicks on the icon of the program he is trying to launch despite obvious signs that the system is busy (almost solid hard drive light, partial screen redraws). He then complains because the computer is not doing what he wants it to do.
They complain that a game freezes but don't understand that there is nothing that can be done about it. The next thing I am waiting for is "disk full" errors because I bet nobody has told them anything about memory, disk, etc.
THEREFORE. Let's put Macs (old and new), PCs with Windows (several versions) and Linux (again, several versions) on them. Some old Acorn kit (BBC, Archimedes), a Commodore 64, PET, Amiga, Sinclair ZX81, Spectrum, Apple II, TRS-80, SparcStaions and whatever else we can find.
Teach them what computers ARE, what they can DO and then and ONLY THEN teach specific tasks. But use different software. Challenge them to do in MacPaint what they just did in Acorn Draw. Deal with means of transferring information between these systems and with the differing formats.
THAT is an education in IT.
And, BTW, your spelling/typing is no worse than some of the other regulars in these forums, so don't worry yourself about it around here. It has (previously) been roundly frowned upon to pick on grammar and spelling if that is the only thing to be said. |
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MikeP
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| zkarj wrote: | | And, BTW, your spelling/typing is no worse than some of the other regulars in these forums, so don't worry yourself about it around here. It has (previously) been roundly frowned upon to pick on grammar and spelling if that is the only thing to be said. |
Quite right - if the meaning is unclear because of spelling, then I'll ask for clarification, but if the meening is cleer a few speling mistakes don't mater.
I try not to equate poor spelling with lack of intelligence as my wife has the most appalling spelling in spite of being very intelligent.
She went through the school system only 3 years behind me, but what a difference it made. She was never taught how to spell (and neither were any of her peers) as it would stifle their creativity. |
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Jman
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 395
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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If schools budgets are so tight I also wonder why they are using Mac's which is the most expensive hardware/software combo.
When it comes to giving kids a cheap computing platform which will teach them about computers, Linux will win hands down against Mac or Windows.
Windows loses because it is expensive and the complexity of the system is hidden, making it a poor platform for learning purposes. It's only strong point is the large number of good apps which are available, but this advantage has steadily diminished over the years to the point where it should no longer be a deciding factor.
Mac loses because it's too expensive and proprietary, although it is an excellent product.
Linux wins because it's cheap, and their is some flexibility as to how much of the systems complexity one wishes to be exposed to. In a classroom situation it would be easy to secure the system so it wouldn't be breaking every 5 minutes like a Windows system and also to quickly re-clone it if they did without having to worry about re-licensing and activation issues. |
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paulw
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 1136
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Victims, villains and heros (29 May 2007) |
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| Muggles wrote: |
Oh, and WTF is with the Maori bashing? The topic of conversation has nothing to do with Maori, yet Bruce slips in an another slimy racist dig which yet ago shows his prejudices well and clear:
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Hardly Maori bashing just staing a fact. If a school wants some for the "brown culture" then money is no object anything else they have to beg for.. |
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Bruce Simpson
Site Admin
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 6060
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Victims, villains and heros (29 May 2007) |
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| paulw wrote: | | Muggles wrote: |
Oh, and WTF is with the Maori bashing? The topic of conversation has nothing to do with Maori, yet Bruce slips in an another slimy racist dig which yet ago shows his prejudices well and clear:
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Hardly Maori bashing just staing a fact. If a school wants some for the "brown culture" then money is no object anything else they have to beg for.. |
Dead right. There always seems to be money for cultural studies or anything related to the Treaty (even in the losest decile schools) but the same schools end up going cap in hand to parents and the community if they want some lab equipment or other gear. |
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Muggles
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: Victims, villains and heros (29 May 2007) |
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| paulw wrote: | | Muggles wrote: |
Oh, and WTF is with the Maori bashing? The topic of conversation has nothing to do with Maori, yet Bruce slips in an another slimy racist dig which yet ago shows his prejudices well and clear:
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Hardly Maori bashing just staing a fact. If a school wants some for the "brown culture" then money is no object anything else they have to beg for.. |
Putting your prejudices on display, does not make it a fact.
You & Bruce have obvious never actually contributed to the school system by being on a board of trustee's & your ignorance shows.
If you had, you will know how operating grants work (and a little about fund raising). At least from my experience (BoT), I can tell you that there is no pot of gold no matter what kapa haka or treaty lessons you run. How can I put this in simple terms; money does not flow for Maori.
In fact, I will go as far as saying that in a decile 10 school that I know, funding it not a major problem; we didn't bother about a school fair as we really didn't need the money other than for some extra sports equipment & playground extensions. What begging is that? We weren't the only school to run a surplus.
If you are still racist enough to think that 'brown culture' gets whatever; ( nice to see it's not just Maori bashing & is just based on skin colour for you)  then at least try and educate yourself: its not like the information is not freely available these days if don't want to look stupid.
http://www.minedu.govt.nz/index.cfm?layout=index&indexID=3964&indexparentid=1010 |
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Ian O
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 1015
Location: Christchurch
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: Cheap or inexpensive? |
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[quote="Jman"] | Quote: | | If schools budgets are so tight I also wonder why they are using Mac's which is the most expensive hardware/software combo. |
Yes, you can buy Kamakuzi Windows gear that is cheaper up front than Macs, but by the time you factor in the 'extras' (both hard & soft) included by Apple, plus the installation & on-going maintenance costs the difference isn't as marked. For e.g. I looked after a local primary school's Macs on a part-time on call basis, but when the Principal decided to dump them and go all Wintel, they had to employ a full time IT manager.
| Quote: | | When it comes to giving kids a cheap computing platform which will teach them about computers, Linux will win hands down against Mac or Windows. |
I don't imagine many schools would have anyone on the staff able to mind Linux boxes.
| Quote: | | Windows loses because it is expensive and the complexity of the system is hidden, making it a poor platform for learning purposes. It's only strong point is the large number of good apps which are available, but this advantage has steadily diminished over the years to the point where it should no longer be a deciding factor. |
How are they coping with the latest Vista arrivals?
| Quote: | | Mac loses because it's too expensive and proprietary, although it is an excellent product. |
Not necessarily, it's not problem and true.
| Quote: | | Linux wins because it's cheap, and their is some flexibility as to how much of the systems complexity one wishes to be exposed to. In a classroom situation it would be easy to secure the system so it wouldn't be breaking every 5 minutes like a Windows system and also to quickly re-clone it if they did without having to worry about re-licensing and activation issues. |
Undoubtedly true, but why are so few installed? |
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bob
Joined: 29 May 2007
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: heres a thought |
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school sells MACs
school buys new PCs
school gets Windows and office FREE through exisiting MS / MOE agreement
NO need to use / change to open source
kids get used to same apps and OS they will see in their future employment
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Muggles
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 440
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 10:34 am Post subject: Re: heres a thought |
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| bob wrote: | school sells MACs
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Losing a big investment in training, software and resources as well as often excellent hardware.
| bob wrote: |
school buys new PCs
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Spending money on new hardware (which will generally come with Vista installed), virus-checkers software, and all new educational software - all money that could be better spent on things like .. education.
| bob wrote: |
school gets Windows and office FREE through existing MS / MOE agreement
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They get a license to be able to use MS Office and Windows for some period of time (one year?). It costs the education dept over $10 million so not so free? If MS decide to not agree to the deal next year, then the schools are screwed as all the documents they create are tied up in closed format documents & they would have to pay what ever MS demands.
Note that most schools buying hardware like Toshiba notebooks, are already paying for the Windows license built into the cost of the hardware - so they get to pay for Windows twice.
| bob wrote: |
NO need to use / change to open source
kids get used to same apps and OS they will see in their future employment
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My youngest is 5 yrs old. Will she be using XP/Vista & MS Office in 13 years time? My kids applications of choice are pretty much all web based or like KidsPix and The Sims are cross-platform. I think to my kids minds, applications look more like Google or Wikipedia rather than desktop apps on Windows.
When I was at school, I taught myself Basic programming on a ZX Spectrum - which has very little to do with modern computer environments. I suspect Word & Excel will look just as irrelevant to future computing in 10 or more years time. |
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thrashcardiom
Joined: 24 Jan 2005
Posts: 525
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | They get a license to be able to use MS Office and Windows for some period of time (one year?). It costs the education dept over $10 million so not so free? If MS decide to not agree to the deal next year, then the schools are screwed as all the documents they create are tied up in closed format documents & they would have to pay what ever MS demands.
Note that most schools buying hardware like Toshiba notebooks, are already paying for the Windows license built into the cost of the hardware - so they get to pay for Windows twice. |
Generally these sorts of license agreements run for 3 years and the licensee gets to keep the software licenses after the agreement runs out. Over the period of the agreement they can upgrade their licenses to the latest available version. When they exit they exit with the most current version of each product license they have purchased.
OEM licenses can be added to the license pool for a minimal cost and then have the same upgrade rights applied.
I'd be very surprised if the education department agreement didn't include similar terms. |
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Jman
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 395
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Quote:
Linux wins because it's cheap, and their is some flexibility as to how much of the systems complexity one wishes to be exposed to. In a classroom situation it would be easy to secure the system so it wouldn't be breaking every 5 minutes like a Windows system and also to quickly re-clone it if they did without having to worry about re-licensing and activation issues.
Undoubtedly true, but why are so few installed? |
This is a big question. In my not so humble opinion it would be a very good thing if linux desktop sytems started making more of a penetration into NZ offices, homes and classrooms. NZ is one of the most Microsoft addicted countries I have seen, although it's not nearly as bad today as it was say 5 years ago. Traditionally the reason why people have avoided Linux is because it's perceived as being too steep a learning curve, and that Windows is "easier". I don't think it would be any harder to teach someone who is brand new to computers how to use say Suse Linux Desktop or Ubuntu, compared to Windows, but people prefer to stick with whats familiar. The Microsoft marketing machine is also brilliant at convincing people their offering is the best.
| Quote: | | I don't imagine many schools would have anyone on the staff able to mind Linux boxes. |
I doubt many schools have any Windows techy person who is able to do much more than assist with simple problems or have to re-build the PC when something more complex comes along. Heck most Windows engineers can't even fix Windows problems.
Send the schools tech person on an intensive week-long Linux training course, teach them how to quickly and painlessly re-image a lab pc and after a few weeks the school would have a much more reliable and cost effective system. |
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Ian O
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 1015
Location: Christchurch
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Victims, villains and heros (29 May 2007) |
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I just checked at the much maligned NeoOffice site for the bugs
| Quote: | | "But Mr Le Sueur said NeoOffice was littered with problems, and its website warned that users could expect lots of bugs. |
As it is a port of OpenOffice they admit that any problems there will be in the Neo version, but their acknowledged list of problems is:
| Quote: | Image resolution is limited to 300 dots per inch when printing
Due to the way that the underlying OpenOffice.org and Java code handle images, printing of high resolution images is limited to a maximum of 300 dots per inch. This limitation only affects high resolution images and does not affect printing of text, lines, or shapes.
No video, plug-in, or applet support
We haven't had time to implement these features. |
Doesn't sound like a deal-breaker to me.
Has anyone seen a list of bugs present in MS Office? |
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