Aardvark

[Bruce Simpson]

After reading a description of my Recoverable Proxy system at: http://aardvark.co.nz/rproxy.shtml you can post your comments, critiques or suggestions right here.

Would it be a sensible way to improve the state of our democracy and introduce some much-needed checks and balances on our politicians?

Unlike many new systems proposed by purists rather than pragmatists, it does not rely on everyone voting on every motion before parliament and is more of an extension-to, rather than a replacement-of, the current system.

99% of the time, a recoverable proxy-based parliament would continue just like it does today. The only time I can see any number of people choosing to recover their proxy and have their own say on issues is when there appears to be a huge divide between the wishes of the people and the wishes of those who purport to represent them.

Fire away!

[edwin]

Bruce, you would still need a non-technological way of allowing those to vote who don't have access to phones, internet or ATMs.

There are citizens living under bridges, or in cheap council-owned accommodation and without a phone who are just as entitled to vote as anyone else.

I agree, make use of the technology for what is hopefully a majority, but for the poor, elderly, or otherwise incapable of using the technology you suggest, offer a standard pen and paper option as well.

Overall, not a bad idea but I like my idea of voting for parties and it is the parties who represent the population, but at any time you can change your vote at any such time that a party exceeds a certain percentage lead, they are "in" and the previous ones "out".

How would you get your idea implemented? Is there a way it can happen? Or is this just an idea that is never going to be implemented?

[Bruce Simpson]

[starman]

As soon as you mentioned ATMs my first reaction was 'national identity card' which made me cringe.

I like the idea in principle and look forward to some interesting comments.

Instead of having alternatives to technology how about providing access to these methods in places like libraries, post shops, council offices, etc. Again these ideas suggest the ID card which may be the sacrifice we have to make to get an idea like this accepted.

[Bruce Simpson]

[Jman]

It's a great idea although I think it's a bit complicated for the average voter to grasp. If used in conjunction with Citizen initiated referendum you would truly have the most accountable government in the world.

However I simply don't see any push for more accountable govt. from any of our political masters so I can't see such measures being implemented any time soon. Do any established governments anywhere in the world implement measures like these? I would be interested to know. I suspect it's a rather rare thing.

[nicko]

I think its a great idea - you have my vote. The national ID card was one of the first things that came up in my mind too though, but as you say - this may not be up to abuse with the system you propose.

I agree to a certain extent that people without the technology are less inclined to follow the issues, but they still need the right to access and vote. I didn't think the idea was difficult to understand.

Where do we go from here? It seems like a better way to fair representation, but how much decision making do you let the general population make? Is it likely to lead to silly decisions? (more silly than now?)

[Bruce Simpson]

[smeenz]

[Perry]

Would an alternative or complementary idea be a recall?

If over 55% of the electorate participated in a local
referendum that had the potential to recall (fire!) the
elected MP, that would be a good way to call them to
account. It could work in a similar way to incorporated
societies, where members (voters) can requisition
a SGM to consider a specific item of business.

Which could be the dismissal of the president/MP.

[Newsjunkie]

The first thing I thought about when you mentioned ATM machines is election tampering. You want to trust banks not to influence an election! Deibold the company which supplies Kiwi Bank's ATMs also makes eVoting machines which in the USA have been found to be untrustworthy and susceptible to tampering.

I think your idea has a lot of merit but how would political behaviour change? Kiwis weren't really unhappy with the old first past the post system they were unhappy with the party in power being able to gerrymander the electoral boundaries. The fix is MMP which has completely changed political behaviour.

With recoverable proxy I would forsee a lot more legislation being passed in the dead of night with little debate or even public notification - the way politicians pay rises are now. Electioneering would become semi-continuous to prevent proxy withdrawl. On a contentious issue which was likely to get only a 1 politician vote majority - lobby groups could sway the vote by influencing people in just a couple of electorates to recover their proxies. Although that may be a harder job than influencing individual politicians.

[Ian O]

[Bruce Simpson]

[Ian O]

[elocation]

I like it. Couple of thoughts:

- Could I nominate a permanent proxy for my votes. i.e. the person I voted for as my MP, but who didn't actually get elected? My next door neighbour? Or at least another elected member of parliament?

- If you could set up a permanent proxy, this would change the concept of electorate MP quite considerably I would have thought. If enough people around the country all decide to give their proxy to some particular person, who is not an MP, would that person gaining a large amount of support justify their inclusion in parliament?

[goldedge]

Hi while the idea as outlined has some merit it unfortunately relies on people educating themsleves on an issue and then taking some action to attempt to force a change.

In my view it would be better and simpler to establish a website ie. "myvote.co.nz" or taking the concept international "myvote.com" where polls or referendums could be held on an issue this could even be a place where you could have information relating to issue or topic, perhaps even discussion forums? All data traffic should be secure ie https.

Based on past experience the ONLY thing that has any real effect on our supposed political representatives is the possible loss of employment.

A public website with high voter participation could not possibly be ignored by any political party, as such I see the probability of establishing and running one successfully as being strongly resisted by the powers that be.

If for no other reason than a system that succeded in forcing political accountability would be an extreme threat to some other so called democratic governments?

It would have to be either in private ownership/management or perhaps
associted with or controlled/run by a politically neutral organisation
or board?

"The Government should have no input or control whatsoever"

Would it fly?
I believe that if the website became established and was seen to have some political (actual effect) that kiwis would be very keen to make their views known to the people supposed to represent them.

Regards
Michael

[4765656B]

In general I quite like the idea as described. I certainly think that the existing party line that seems to influence most decisions doesn't ensure that a representative (MP) represents their constituents. Couple of thoughts I've had:

a) Is the majority decision always correct, or the right one? I know, I know, that's what democracy is supposed to be about, but imagine this. Setting taxation levels. Vote for status quo or reduction to 0%. What do you reckon the majority are going to vote? Sadly, most are not going to think past next weeks pay packet and consign us all to a very mad future.

b) Due to the potentially very dynamic nature of a vote like this, will a government actually ever get a stable enough situation to do anything? Who will control the agenda? Will issues have to be posted days/weeks ahead of voting times (yes)? Won't the media end up controlling any given result?

So far, I'd be more than prepared to see the idea debated by a learned think tank, but it would certainly need some very detailed plans before I would throw my support fully behind it.

[linux_mike]

Anyone interested, have a good read of the relevant material on democracy available on Wikipedia:
Democracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy
Direct Democracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy of which this would be a form. Note all the points for and against (far more than already raised here), also note the curent Swiss system of cantons.

Those interested in the issues involved on electronic or internet voting should read:
eDemocracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-democracy
Electronic Voting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_voting
NZ Research on the topic http://www.edemocracy.co.nz/

I have been interested in this idea over time myself. My main concern being self interest versus altruism; where self interest is the driving influence that would cause many to vote. On a normal distribution curve the extremists at each end tend to make the most noise, with the middle tending to be swayed towards "whats in it for me" when they are moved sufficiently. Minorities tend to loose out thus the Indians end up on reservations, and Te Kooti on the Chathams.

Having read all the above, i feel i can support your innitiative when electronic voting is up to the task. I doubt a democracy would leave it in its current form for implementation. Placing freely accessible voting terminals should not be to much of an issue when they are available, libraries and schools for instance.

[edwin]

[starman]

That is an accurate summary of the way I see it here in NZ. Well said.

edwin for PM!

[linux_mike]

Thought long and hard before replying to this one.

[linux_mike]

Is it possible to use bbcode to make that link? email me at paradise.net.nz if it is.

[Greg]

[linux_mike]

THX, My bad. It was a long URL and i have had no previous experience with BBCode, I wanted to see how you rewrote the link. I read the manual and now i understand (url=http://xxx.xxx.nz)go here(/url). Will use that method in the future or DIGG long URL's

[brigand]

Just put yourself in their position for a minute (god forbid!!).

If you were at the centre of the establishment in this or any other country, why on earth would you want to introduce any measures to change anything?

Who needs more democracy? Everything is going along quite nicely as it is right now.

"They"created the system and "they" aren't going to change anything until the whole mess falls apart at some near or distant time in the future.

You want to see pragmatists in action? They are out there running the show as plain as day, if you only have the eyes to see it.

[linux_mike]

[Arachnid]

[glennb]

Bruce,

this is a reasonable idea, but I suspect it'll produce bad outcomes.

Effectively it allows a referendum-type vote on any issue before Parliament. A good idea one might say - let the people rule the people.

I don't won't to sound too condescending, but the "people" are not qualified to rule the people. "People" will not avail themselves of all the knowledge necessary to have an educated vote on specific bills, and are more likely to vote on their perceived "what's in it for me" factor.

Hence, if a bill was put forward to lower all personal tax by half, a lot of people would recover their proxy and vote for the tax cut without considering the effects on inflation and the possibility of bankrupting the government.

Some ideas sound bad until they've been implemented with the results evidenced years down the track. It takes intelligence and foresight of special people to derive some of these ideas, and enormous political courage to implement them despite popular opinion against the idea.

<my political leanings>
Too much this Labour government passes their social engineering bills by appealing to the "what's in it for me" factor, eg zero interest on student loans and the recent threshold increases for Working For Families.
</my political leanings>

I'm afraid the "people" recovering their proxy would make the situation worse.

[Craig]

The problem with this is the news media would become the most powerful entity in the country. They can choose to report any issue they wish and shape public opinion any way they want.

The next most powerful group would be rich lobby groups who can afford to spend money shaping public opinion.

The sloppy reporting we are seeing where journalists re-print press releases rather than investigating them and asking questions would be another issue.

The David Bain case is a classic example. The media have portrayed him as a persecuted angel who was unfairly locked away. But there must have been a body of evidence that caused the police to pursue the case against him and the jury to come to that verdict. The media only reports the headlines it wants not the details.

Currently the government have power and government can choose to ignore the public when setting policy behind closed doors. For good or ill this is the reason for the 3 year term, so they can't get kicked out on a whim when they make a hard decision.

I would like the transferrable proxy myself but I wouldn't trust to many other people with it.

[Igor]

I love the concept, and have a few ideas of my own on the subject:

I think we can create secure enough way to vote on-line. People who don't have access to computers with internet at home should be able to gain access to the technology either in a public library or at a poling station. How you make sure the person is securely authenticated is a technicality that can easily be solved by modern technology. We can get at least to the same level of authentication and security that exists now in the current voting process.

I think that the technology will enable us to scrap geographical electorates too. This will also remove the problem that FPP was presenting, and MMP was unsuccessfully trying to fix. In simple terms, a person who has 35000 proxy votes gets to be in parliament. At any point that the politician lost sufficient support, just like any other employee they get three week notice for non-performance. If they didn't clean up their act, they are sacked.

The problem with media becoming powerful can also be addressed by giving the politician with the three weeks notice an ability to go back to the people who elected the person and persuade them to change their mind. This will force those elected to stay closely in touch and accountable to their electorate, and represent their electorate views.

I don't think Recoverable Proxy is the best name for the system - it sounds too technical. We need to come up with a better name, that sounds sexy and gets people on-board with this system. We also need to come up with a simple vision that can be explained in 30 seconds.

I am keen to work with others to change our political system to this one!